You’ve probably been here before. See if this sounds familiar to you.
You don’t have enough time. You’re stressed out and overwhelmed. You don’t have enough energy. And, you can’t get to the things that you need to as a leader.
Even making some necessary changes to get out of the cycle can feel like taking on too much.
Whether it’s documenting your systems, getting process and communication flow organized, or simply hiring (and then delegating), it can feel like it’s not worth the price to pay.
Welcome to the Leadership Crazy Cycle! We talk a lot about this around here, but today we’re taking a deeper dive into what it is, where it comes from, and how to get out of it.
Plain and simple, it’s not just a phase, and it won’t go away on its own. It’s an enemy that every leader has to kill and then guard against. So, what can leaders do to combat this?
Today, you’ll discover that it is possible to get your actions, tasks, and goals in alignment so that your trajectory and momentum propel you out of the ruts that are keeping you back.
Enjoy this episode!
Joel Fortner 0:00
We talk so much about the leadership Crazy Cycle what that is and how leaders can get out of it coming up next.
Chris LoCurto 0:16
Welcome to the Chris LoCurto show where we discuss leadership and life and discover that business is what you do, not who you are.
Joel Fortner 0:28
Hey, guys, welcome to the Chris LoCurto show. This is not Chris LoCurto. I feel like Brian, I always have to say that when I'm on the show that this is not as if it's not obvious to everybody. But this is Joel Fortner on Chris's team. Glad to be back on the show. With my illustrious colleague, Brian Alex, deep in the heart of Italy.
Brian A 0:53
I get called lots of things often, and that is not one of them. So thank you,
Joel Fortner 0:59
for use by me. So no, I'm so glad we're getting together today. Chris is out having fun doing some other things. So Brian and I are jumping on the microphones. And we always have a lot of fun together. And hopefully, this will be very beneficial and valuable to all of you who are listening. But today we are diving into a pretty common topic around our place and around our coaching programs. And that is this whole thing called the leadership Crazy Cycle. And Brian, why don't you tell everyone for those who aren't familiar with it? Like, what is that whole thing about?
Brian A 1:33
Yeah, well, I mean, that is what this episode is all about. So I don't want to do that. I don't want to do any big spoilers here. But yeah, Crazy Cycle is something that, you know, when when I hear the term Crazy Cycle, I go back to the late 80s. And all through the 90s marriage counseling and a lot of you know, especially moving into Christian circles, there were a lot of folks talking about how couples can get into a crazy cycle with just verbally and going back and forth and discussions, that kind of thing. And it and it gives you this, you know what comes to my mind, it gives you this idea of getting stuck in a rut somehow? Well, when we've come up into the last decade here, Chris has used this term, this terminology to talk about ruts that businesses business leaders, in particular, find themselves in and so yeah, I thought let's let's take the time because it's been a long time since we've had an entire episode dedicated to this topic of how to kill the Crazy Cycle. Let's spend the time digging into it. I'd like to just kind of peel back some of the layers here, talk about what it looks like, let's describe it gives some of the warning signs. How do you know if you're in and you know, a lot of our business leaders that follow? They may be in the Crazy Cycle and not know that that's what it is. And being able to identify it and acknowledge it is part of the process of being able to get out of that trap. And so that's what I'm hoping we can dig into today. And so Chris has said in the past that task saturation is one of the fastest ways to leadership destruction. That is a direct quote. I don't know if even he would remember saying it or saying it that way. But that really stood out to me, he goes on to kind of unpack that a little bit. It leads to people drama, and people conflict and it's exhausting. Team members not being productive and then you spend a lot of time doing other people's work because you don't trust them to do it, or do it as well as you can. And this is a vicious cycle. And so this is one of the first earmarks that we kind of tear into when talking about the crazy cycle. So my first question up is, is there more to it than just the task saturation part? What are the various components or earmarks characteristics here that we're dealing with?
Joel Fortner 4:13
Yeah, there's there is a lot more involved. I mean, when you get to the emotional side, there's stress and overwhelm and frustration. You know, a one way to tell if you're in the leadership, crazy cycles that you're going through your day-to-day, and you're trying to do more, or you're going through your week-to-week and you're trying to do more. You're trying to grow your organization, you're hiring people, and you've got problems that pop up that you need to solve. You've got a vision that you're trying to get to or you've got strategies that you've laid out, say they're a new product, a new service, or and you find yourself like I don't have time I don't have time. I don't have time. I don't have the energy. I don't have the energy. I don't have the energy, that you're in the leadership Crazy Cycle, because you're not able to get To the things that you need to be able to get to as a leader. So for instance, like, when people start doing their new leaders or they start businesses, it's all on them, of course, their tasks are saturated, and then they start to grow and take on even more tasks. And then eventually, leaders and entrepreneurs never make the transition very smoothly, if you will, or as smoothly as you could, when you're stuck in the Crazy Cycle, because you need to graduate from being that, you know, this is my thing, this is my baby. And then I've got people coming around me to help me get this thing done. Your mindset has to shift to we mindset, and you have to become more of a leader than anything else, because you've got enough money moving around, and enough people moving around to have enough problems. And who's leading it all who's corralling it? Who's corralling the cats? And who is solving the problems that come up? Who has the time, if you're on the phone, or you're checking email at all hours of the day, you start your day and task, and then you get through your day. And it's like man, I was really busy. I did a ton of stuff. But I don't know how much of it really added value or move things forward. You're probably stuck in the leadership Crazy Cycle. And you're stressed and overwhelmed. And then when people say, Hey, here's things that you need to do in order to solve that, well, I don't have time to do that stuff. You are in the leadership crisis cycle. And it's a matter of then okay, how long are you going to let it last? And eventually, when do you decide to then do the hard work to change things?
Brian A 6:40
Yeah, it sounds like we need a whole other episode of You know, the Top 10 You might be in the Crazy Cycle, you know, might be a redneck, if,
Joel Fortner 6:49
yeah, your checklist, swag.
Brian A 6:52
Here's your here's your checklist. If you tick all the boxes, yeah, just give up and go home. I'm sure some people probably feel like that, because you know, not even being able to implement some of the steps, the processes, the hiring, whatever it's going to take. And we'll get to that in a few minutes. To get them out of that cycle. If you can't even get there. You are stuck, as Chris said, in a vicious cycle. And, you know, so some of those earmarks that stood out as you were talking, you don't feel like you have enough time, you don't have enough energy, you can't get to the things that you need to. And, and one of those things that leaders need to get to is to leading others around them. And gosh, that's gotta be such a hard moment to be aware of, to be cognizant of to make that switch over when, when you're an entrepreneur, you're starting out, you know, it's probably you, maybe a spouse, or family or friends or somebody close, and you guys are just doing everything you get, you're putting in every you know, 60 7080 hours a week? And when do you start taking your eyes off of all the things that you know, you can do? Because this is your dream? This is your baby this is, you know, you're inventing the processes as you're walking through it. And then yeah, when do you? How do you know when that time is? I guess that's something it's gonna be, you know, subjective. But how would you speak to a leader who finds himself in that position today?
Joel Fortner 8:30
Yeah, you really can't start soon enough, it's that people just tend to not prioritize, starting soon enough, getting everything organized. What I mean by that is documenting your processes and your systems, getting strategies that you're executing on strategies, this is a big, fancy word for stuff that you're doing. That's what it is, it's actions and tasks and goals that you have. But they should all be organized and written down and all be pointing towards something that usually people just operate they run and gun, it's exciting. They don't want to slow down to document stuff and, and write it down. That sounds too administrative or too boring. I mean, the highest and see personality styles are like, you know, hey, no problem. Like I'm pretty good at that. The DS and eyes on the DISC profile. If you're new to us, the disc framework is our is the was our go-to personality style assessment that we're very deep on here within our culture, and that we teach in our coaching programs. But if you're that highly dominant, highly influencing person that doesn't love the detail, you're going to operate and it's like I know what I'm doing. I know what I've got to do, you have a pretty small to-do list. But you get to a place where you've got to stop and say, okay, everything's got to get organized. What is happening here? What is going on? How do our operations work? How does our customer service work? What's our culture supposed to be? What is our sales strategy? What's our marketing strategy? What's our plan? financial strategy, when do I make time for these things? Who does? What? What does success look like with all of that stuff? What do teams look like? Who's leading those teams? What is leadership supposed to look like? What are those KRAs look like for those teams? Is there? What are meetings look like when a one on one meetings happen? When do team meetings happen? When do tough conversation meetings happen? When do reset meetings happen? When do strategy planning meetings happen? And it's like, we never get all that. Yeah, because we're running and gunning. Well, we've got to stop and organize the business, we have to organize everything that's going on, then we can say, How do I take this slice of pie and put it over here, and now this team or this person owns it. And then I lead them, and I train them, and I set them up for success? And I do that with all slices of my pecan pie called my business. And that's the beginning of how we start to break this thing.
Brian A 11:01
I absolutely love pecan pie. That was one of my favorites. I spent several years growing up in the South and man, pecan pie I miss so well. It's so good.
Joel Fortner 11:13
Yeah, yeah, that's how we should look at our business as sweet and rich. Yes, we divvy it up. And we give it to other people to take responsibility for and I don't want to give it away to do well, the problem is that's that's the conundrum.
Brian A 11:31
We've just switched metaphors here. But so my question is, does the problem just go away? on its own? Is it uh, if I, you know, I'm trying to empathize here, my nose to the grindstone. Oh, hi, Dee, hi, see, I'm organizing and systematizing, I feel like I've got a handle, there are days that I don't have a handle on it. I keep telling myself, this is just a phase, these are growing pains. It's gonna pass with time. Is that true or false?
Joel Fortner 12:03
If you choose to ignore it long enough, sure, you can say that it goes away. Because the business is going to close. Exactly. If it's like, I'm assuming that we're actually trying to do something you're trying to grow your business, you're trying to achieve goals. If you're doing anything at all, this thing is going to be in your face. Because you're going to you're gonna see you don't have time for things or things aren't being well LED. So you can't get traction. Because no one's leading things well, or things are coming off the rails because we're not meeting on things regularly enough and having enough clarity on tasks and goals and who's doing what and then resetting and then figuring out, oh, shoot, we had a miscommunication there. They went that way. And I thought we were going this way, we'll Okay, let's get everybody reorganized again. So it just creates all this chaos and all this frustration. So somebody's got to be doing stuff like that.
Brian A 12:58
Yeah, I imagine that for those that are thinking, Well, I'm gonna hire the staff that I need and get some of this stuff off of my plate. That's a great plan. In theory, the difficult part, I think, where leaders can can fumble the ball here is that they do the hiring. They're paying out more now for that other person, you know, to occupy a seat on the bus. But then they struggle with the delegation process. They struggle with accountability, they struggle with really letting go of things. I know Chris has spoken to that. In several episodes here, just in the last six months, we've talked about that, that problem, where leaders hold on to things probably longer than they should. And they never get to that next level of leadership, where they're leading people, they tend to lead problems and just, you know, going around putting out fires, I guess that still kind of in the Crazy Cycle is what we're saying.
Joel Fortner 14:03
It can be a whole lot of it can keep you in the Crazy Cycle, there's always going to be unexpected things, there's always going to be problems, that we're not saying operate, you're going to operate with perfection here. But when you start to hire people and bring them on or you start to grow your teams, or you start to then try to raise up leaders say you've got a well-established business, you're trying to raise up leaders because you realize, man, I need leaders and more of a leadership team, that this assumes that you know how to lead pretty decently well. And a lot of people don't why? Because they've never been taught. I remember so long ago, that I was early in my leadership career, working for the Air Force at the time, and I was put into this leadership role. And I went to my first formal leadership training, and it was so eye-opening and it was so exciting. And I remember one of the things after that I had this really difficulty Remember at this one time, I didn't know how to lead her well, and she was it was just a very difficult person to lead. That afterward, I remember sitting there in that class thinking, Oh, my gosh, where was this information, then? This just opened my eyes and I now know exactly what I would have done with that team member where before, I had no clue. So this is why we do what we do. It's why we do coaching programs. So because we're constantly developing and training leaders to actually do the people part. Task stuff isn't hard for most people. It's the people part of the business. That's the hardest thing for leaders. Because they're because we're complex, we're difficult. We're different personality styles, we have bad days, some people communicate terribly other people communicate great or average, or we have our preferences and tendencies or we have our own cultures that we're bringing into the business or I want things to go this way. And you're trying to lead all this stuff. And it's the people part that becomes so difficult. And then let alone, trying to lead out complex strategies or multiple strategies, and have the time to meet on that stuff consistently. Not meet once a month, and get to it when we get to it, but having consistency in your meetings and in your communication, so that we're proactively moving stuff forward, rather than the leadership Crazy Cycle keeping you stuck in short-term tasks and fires and problems. We assume when we hire people, that Well, I think it'll go okay. And then so often it doesn't go okay.
Brian A 16:36
Yeah, yeah. And I feel like we're pushing into the practical aspects here, I just want to pause and then we're gonna get to that, here in about the Midway marker through this episode, Chris was talking about it, you know, this crazy cycle will make you feel as a leader, frustrated and overwhelmed. And maybe that's, you know, some people out there listening, in leading their business, it keeps you from growing at the pace that you want. It has you working all the time, and growing apart from your family, friends, you know, social, all that kind of thing. And your mantra is, well, it's just easier to do it myself. It's easier to do it myself. What do we have? What do we offer, as a team as a company that if somebody finds himself in that rut right now, and we're gonna get to some helpful things and practical things that they can implement in the meantime, but is there? Is there something that we do that we come alongside them to help them get out of that permanently?
Joel Fortner 17:40
Yeah, so I would say, yes, we do. And let me get to some advice in just a second here. But it's not even really permanent, the Crazy Cycle you can find yourself in, in different phases and seasons of your business, because it assumes sometimes you have growth, and you find stuff creeps back to your plate, and there's too much on your plate. And you have to go through the steps to get back to where you need to be or you lose people or you have turnover in tasks and things shift around and over. And you're starting over again. So got a mindset is, is that you're constantly washing the leadership Crazy Cycle. So some things that you can start to do right now leaders can start to do right now. Number one is, is get what's on your plate, get it written down. What do you do? Because if you're recognizing like, man, I've got to get stuff off of my plate. This is it's taking up too much of my energy, my time and my personal life. And I just need to get some stuff off my plate, we first have got to get your plate identified as to what's on it. What do you do? A lot of people will be like, Oh, I know what I do. I'm telling you, if you haven't tracked it and written it down, you don't have a great handle on everything that you do. I mean, everything, not just Well, I know I do these meetings, and then I check email, and then I respond to stuff. I'm talking about what I mean to get detailed. It's like kind of like you want to lose weight. And people are saying, well, you need to track what your intake is. Well, I have a good idea, Joel of like, what I eat and what I take in your
Brian A 19:20
Joel Fortner 19:22
For breakfast, you're eating your pecan pie instead of giving it away. It's like it's yours it's you until you really track it being I come into work all the time. And people are like, Hey, how was your weekend? And they're asking me on Monday, and I have a pretty good idea of what Sunday looks like. But then it gets to Saturday, a whole two days ago. And I'm scratching my head, like what did I do on Saturday and we want to say, Oh, I know what I do. I don't need to write it down. Don't kid yourself. Write this stuff down because then you can start to identify what's on your plate and you can question why are By doing this and think about what do you pay yourself as a business owner. Or if you're a leader within an organization? What's your salary? What do you make? break it out by the hour? Is it I'm getting paid to do this task right here? And for this amount of money, does it make sense that you're doing it, this isn't going to be a wow, there you go, I can get rid of everything that I don't like to do, we have to have a plan of proper delegation. And proper is the keyword there. But as a starting place, we've got to get things corralled and organized so we can see what we're dealing with first. So get your stuff documented, then there are steps you can take after to figure out who can do what, and who can I train to do what one of the limiting beliefs that hold leaders back, though, when it comes to delegation, is I'm dumping my stuff on people, you got to get over that, you've got to get past that, or you're never going to grow in your leadership. And you're going to hold your team back, or you're going to hold your company back. Because you have a limiting belief that you're harming or hurting people. by delegating things. You're not just saying, Here's your slice of pie, boom, have fun with that, Brian, there's a sit-down, there's a discussion, there is a What is your plate look like? What's your capacity look like? Let's discuss what this looks like for you to take on this task, or this big initiative or big thing that you tend to do as the leader. But you recognize I really would love to get this off of my plate because someone else could do it better. And they actually, I can actually go on to do these other things that we have no capacity to get to now. And so it's not like you're not going to do anything. When you delegate stuff. You're always looking at what's on deck. And what's going to come onto your plate now when you get stuff off of your plate? But also heaven forbid, you dropped from 60 hours a week to 50 in your workweek, like heaven forbid you do that you don't have to feel every hour, that may be great to have 10 hours back for your personal life. So that's a great place to start. Another place to start is a process called closing out your day.
The gist is this managing tomorrow starts today. So at the end of your day today, you need to organize what does tomorrow look like. High-performing people don't operate on just task lists, they operate with a calendar, and they schedule stuff out ahead of time. And so there's the power of the task list of what am I doing, prioritizing it to what's most important, and then driving your time onto your calendar, telling yourself tomorrow, this is what I'm going to be doing. And this is what I'm doing on Thursday. And this is what I'm doing on Friday. And you're constantly managing your task list and your calendar, like all the time, because you're constantly looking at what's a priority, what's a priority, what's a priority, that moves stuff forward. Other things get rescheduled, other things get delegated other things may not get done. But that starts this afternoon. So my challenge to everyone listening is if you're not doing this setup tomorrow for success before you leave work today, or late tonight, whatever, what does tomorrow look like? What's your to-do list look like? What is number 12345 and its priority, go schedule on your calendar, when you're going to get that stuff done. This should be a daily ritual for all leaders.
Brian A 23:37
Yeah, you know, what comes to mind as we were we do this all the time, we're taught to do this with our money, we think about the next paycheck coming up, where that's that you know that those funds are going to go, we name every dollar, and it's got a place, it's got a function. But we don't do this a lot in our time. And also our you know, the resource allocation, you know, Chris, could you know very well make it part of his Kbra to clean the offices. And there's nothing wrong with that job cleaning the offices that need to be done. Is he the only one that can do it? No. Are there things that only Chris can do? Absolutely. And so then we want to look at well, then what where does it make sense that Chris spends his time? And where do we need to hire somebody else to do a function that you know, they can do so that Chris can focus on the things that only he can do? That's that resource allocation, but then thinking about the time in advance as if it were budgeted because you have a limited amount of time in the day. And if you're giving yourself 810 hours of a workday, how are you going to spend that I like what you're saying it's got to be something it's got to be a thoughtful process. See that we do ahead of time, just like you don't wait for that money to arrive in your bank account, and then go, Okay, I'm gonna take all this out from the, the ATM and I'm just gonna walk through the mall and see where the money goes, I'm just winging it. That is where we spend a lot of time in this trap. And getting out of it means putting a plan in place before the time is ready to be spent. And we do that the day before. So just to try to distill some of these things down to really, you know, crystallize some of the gems here. It sounds like we've got, you know, we've got some acknowledging to do, leaders have got to be honest with themselves, about how they're spending their time, their resources, how they're allocating things, they're, they're thinking, they're organizing their planning in advance, if they are hiring, to do certain roles, then they've got to do the training, they've got to make a good hire, they've got to do the training, and then they've got to let it go, in order for it to really move off of their plate so that they can then focus they can pivot turn, focus on the things that only they can do as the leader and they spend more of their time. And I am assuming this is the goal, correct me if I'm wrong, that as leaders go through this process, and like you say, it may be a battle that they have to revisit, depending on growth and phase. But as they're doing that, hopefully, as they're maturing, they are spending more time managing people than managing the crisis sees that that's kind of the gist of what we're talking about.
Joel Fortner 26:37
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so when you, when you get a handle on your time and your task, you start where you start to move to and your leadership is looking into your organization more looking at its health, looking at its culture, looking at, is everything happening correctly? What are our results in every area? Are we hitting those? And if we're not why? And let's discuss that and figure out whether it's a people problem. Is it a process problem? Is it a communication problem? Is that a resource problem, but you start to go to the cliche, you start working on your business and working on your team? So when you're looking at what's like, well, you know, what, if I don't, everything's running fine. And everything's going well, great. What are you going to go focus on? Because typically, it's often going to be how are you moving things forward. What marketing activities, can you go do now as the leader, what sales activities? Or what are the things that tasks can you then just simply go on to do with your own time, but what leaders learn is that, wow, there is so much work here, in terms of ensuring the team is set up for success, and then growing and developing leaders yourself? Because if you're not growing and developing leaders, you will cap your organization. And you will not be able to grow any farther than that unless you have a business that you can automate a ton of stuff in. And that's an entirely different story. And then you're also looking at what are the strategies and managing the strategies of your company, like writing down detailed strategies of marketing strategies, sales strategies and operations strategies, and customer service. And looking into all of those and seeing is everything operating with excellence spot-checking things because you're looking for health across your organization, rather than just assuming that everything is going, Okay? And just taking a breather and being like, Oh, I don't have anything to do anymore. Praise God. It's like, yes, there's time for that. But then you start to have to start to peer into your organization. When you get to this place of leadership. You know, this, this proverbial place I'm talking about, you're going to find yourself in a lot of meetings, because high-quality meetings, move your business forward. They solve problems, and they're about moving things forward in your business. So I hate meetings. Well, you haven't learned how to properly lead them well enough yet. And there is a ton of information from our organization and many others on leading effective meetings. And the fact that for me as a leader, and as the President of this company, meetings are my favorite thing. I kid you not. I love team meetings and one on one meetings and special project meetings. I love that. Because to me, there's its progress and its productivity, and we're advancing things. But what makes those meetings work so well, the culture of our team, how well we communicate and work together and collaborate. There isn't fighting and arguing and pride issues and people struggling to be right and people being negative and judgmental of each other. We just get in there and set like here's what we're doing. Here's what we're talking about. We understand personality styles. So everyone's leaning in each other's direction and operating with grace and how levels of trust. And then there's clarity on what the meeting is about. But this is another part of the Killing Leadership Crazy Cycle do you run effective meetings? Because a lot of leaders come out of meetings, or people come out of meetings and there isn't clarity on what am I doing? What are the action items, our leaders get a month down the road? And we're like, Hey, how are we doing with that project? Or is that the process we talked about? And people are looking at them like a deer in headlights? Oh, we didn't do anything with that. And it's like, what happened? Well, we're just too busy. What? What happened? We're not leading meetings well enough.
Brian A 30:36
Yep. That reminds me of a quote from John Maxwell. He said The greatest enemy of good thinking is busyness. Busyness will rob you of clarity, and it keeps you confined. And so if you're a leader, and you're wanting more freedom, greater perspective, all of that is on the other side of getting pushing through getting out of the Crazy Cycle. And so as we're kind of wrapping up here, maybe there's a leader out there that saying, hey, all of that sounds great. I need some help. To do that. Where do we point them? What can you
Joel Fortner 31:12
Sure? Well, that's what I mean, get in touch with us. That's what our coaching programs are for that if you want to find out what the next steps look like. And if you want to do some coaching, just contact us, depending on where you're at. We have masterminds, for presidents and CEOs and certain VPS. And we have a key leader program, that's for certain VPS. Again, it's all situational, or managers and supervisors. And these programs are meant for us and our community, of a leader community to come around you so that you can move things forward. And I tell you, it's like I love what we do, and I could talk about it all day. But I won't, because that'd be annoying to everybody. But it's like I struggle with certain things in my life. I struggle at times to prioritize stuff. And that's where I need coaching and accountability. And, or at times, I need coaching because I'm out of information, Brian, it's like I don't know what else to do. I'm not sure what to do. So we need the right information. But then we need to have a like-minded community around you, that gives you that motivation, and that good information and that accountability, that support that helps you actually create behavior change, because that's the thing. Busyness robs us of the ability to think, enough and create new habits. So that's why things like closing out your day and the proper delegation process and that kind of stuff that we teach, this is about habit change. And it's like, oh, man, I'm too busy to be in like a program or do coaching. That's, I want you to hear yourself like that's your objection. It's like you should you need to have time, whether it's with our team or some other team, you need to have time to surround yourself with people that are helping you create new habits that move you in a different direction. And so some people are like man, they kill it. They read books and, and courses, and they just implement all they need is the content. And that's, that's wonderful. If that's you, a lot of people need coaching and community. And then they completely change their leadership game and take things too, as we say around here we take them to the next level.
Brian A 33:21
Yeah, and it sounds like I mean, if they're not there today, they could be there tomorrow, again, based on the dynamic nature of, you know, owning and running a business, you know, you're gonna lose people attrition turnover times change, products change, methodology changes. And with that, you know, processes begin to curve and then you find yourself in New ruts that you weren't in this time last year. And so having a group around you with that accountability, other leaders that are going through similar things, maybe some are ahead of you in that process behind you in that process, but everyone's able to speak into the situation that really gives you some clarity and great perspective. And that's where we find freedom from all of this and hedges against us falling back into that Crazy Cycle. I love it. People can go to ChrisLocurto.com and Click on what we do to find out you know, either the scenario, the coaching, or the event. that's right for them. We have an episode back in gosh, it was a few years ago now Episode 292, how to Kill the Leadership Crazy Cycle that offers a couple of really great examples. I think we talked about Magnus on that episode and some others where Chris is able just to examine how they were at a certain point in their business and what it took for them to get out of that rut that might be helpful to someone but they can always shoot to send an email here podcast at ChrisLocurto.com. To get pointed in the right direction. But at any rate, I love that we found an excuse to jump on here today. And it was great to see you again, my friend. Looking forward to coming back to Nashville, hopefully at the end of this year, and showing up and seeing all of the great things that have happened. We have grown leaps and bounds. And now there's a farm out on a ridge I hear so I'm looking forward to seeing all of that.
Joel Fortner 35:30
Awesome, brother. Well, great to talk with you. Thanks, everybody. I hope this has been helpful and beneficial and just motivated you like if this if you're connecting with this, I hope that it's motivating you to to be like, okay, the return is a point in time where it's like, I've got to start working on some stuff. And, you know, it's like, I know that it can sound stressful and it can sound overwhelming to create change. And sometimes we just have to accept that and there's sometimes there's just not a perfectly clean way to solve problems like the Crazy Cycle. Without it's like, you know, it takes force, it's forced to and to change where you're at. And you reach a place in time where it's like, okay, we've got to bear down and do the hard work. So you can get to where you can be and where you need to be not only just as a leader but just in your personal life as well. And so, hopefully, today has been beneficial. Hopefully, it's been helpful to you. So Brian, great to talk to you as always my friend and we'll catch everybody later on.
Brian A 36:29
See you soon.