551 | Leading Under Pressure and Stress with Jeff Kirkham

Chris LoCurto 0:01
On today's episode we're talking with former Army Special Forces member, Best Selling Author, and serial entrepreneur Jeff Kirkham on leadership, mental health, and improving yourself that is coming up next.

Welcome to the Chris LoCurto show where we discuss leadership and life and discover that business is what you do, not who you are. Walking. Welcome to the show, folks. I hope you're having a fabulous day wherever you are. Today we have got a great guest on the show. I am super excited to welcome Jeff Kirkham to the show. Jeff, welcome to the show.

Jeff Kirkham 0:50
Thank you so much.

Chris LoCurto 0:52
It is so good to have you on and normally I would go through a bio and I'll talk about some of the stuff you've done. But I'm going to hit you with something that I love that's on your Instagram. It says if James Bond q and a caveman had a baby, it would be me. Now that's just that's awesome. Tell me about that. What does that mean?

Jeff Kirkham 1:13
So some of my guys years back and ready mankind of came up with that as a joke. And, and when I read it, I laughed. And I was like, well, if other people read it, then they'll laugh too. But it's also it's like, Well, okay, and I think the James Bond refers back to my former life in special operations. And then the Q portion is I've got several patents on, you know, fixing and improving different stuff. And then, and then the caveman portion is because I, I've got a, I'm a big guy and, and I've got a big head and big hands and, and so it's it. I think that if I had gigantism, I got the big head and the big hands but I'm only like five, seven and a half feet tall so that that bar got slumped. And I don't know. So it just makes me laugh. And so I just like, yeah, like it. So I just kept it.

Chris LoCurto 2:06
Big Head, big hands, big heart. A lot going on. As we get into this first thing I want to do is I want to thank you, I want to tell you how much we appreciate what you've done. Now we are huge fans of our military, our police, those who are taking care of us, you are in the Special Forces. That means a lot to us, especially with all that's going on in the world right now. But that has always just been something that we are super grateful for that you the men and women that allow us to do what we get to do on a daily basis. So thank you for that. But you've done so much more than that Drug Enforcement Agency, government contractor, entrepreneurship, you own black rifle Coffee Company, which a lot of people are enjoying right now I know you got a lot of folks that are drinking that coffee ready, man, which I cannot wait to talk to you more about that you're gonna be here in Nashville onstage with us at the Next-Level Leadership Live Event. And I'm looking forward to just picking your brain on breaks and stuff. And also rats that are ATS medical, which I'm sure you're gonna explain to us as well. But on top of all of this best-selling author of the black autumn series, and if that wasn't enough, you just put yourself through nursing school. And you're doing what's called a rewilding. And I look forward to for you sharing that to folks about how you're helping in the mental health areas. So with all that said, You got to be tired, just listen to me call all the things off that you're doing. So what are you working on these days?

Jeff Kirkham 3:40
You know, it, I'm working diligently to to cut more and more stuff away so that I can so that I can focus on the the mental health aspect of getting out there and helping people like I literally just came from another business appointment where I was trying to get a guy that's interested in picking up one of my one of my side businesses and letting him run with it. So that'd be really cool. And is I'm really diligently trying to focus in more on rewilding the wellness, and self-improvement retreats.

Chris LoCurto 4:15
Yeah, gotcha, gotcha. Tell me about the black autumn series.

Jeff Kirkham 4:20
So that's so black autumn is a really interesting, it's kind of an interesting story in and of itself. So way back when the co-author Jason Ross, when we wrote this, it started out as kind of a conversation. So kind of like in the movies where you see these two guys that are playing this chess game that's been going on for months or something like that. Well, we, this was the conversation. You know, Jason, the co-author, he's a very accomplished outdoorsman, and into emergency preparedness and stuff, but he'd never been in the military never been a cop. And so when we got together, he asked me he's like, Jeff, you know, how do you think the world can stumble, and And I was like, well, here's how I think, here's how I think it could happen. And so, we have this continuing conversation over a period of time. And at one point, I think it was Jason that said, Man, this would make a really great novel because it was, well, if this happened, then that and, and so on. And so it was kind of like the building of this story. And I started writing a science fiction novel when I was in Afghanistan as a way to decompress when I was coming home from missions. And so we would get into like, about three o'clock in the morning, and you're all jacked up on caffeine and adrenaline. And, you know, you're, you're, I mean, it's like, you're literally too tired to go to sleep and your brain is just spinning and so is too late to work out is too dark to go for a run to try and calm yourself. And so I started writing another science fiction novel, and, you know, and it's about a special forces guy in Afghanistan, you know, big surprise. And, but there are monsters, right? And so he's fighting monsters and stuff like that. Well, anyways, I took that it's never been published, I took that manuscript and, and gave it to Jason he read it and he was like, Oh, my gosh, we could do this. And I was like, well, let's do it. And, you know, what has it been like six years later, we're, you know, 10 books into it into the series, the series is over. And it's all about the post. It's a post-apocalyptic novel that takes place, in the Salt Lake Valley. And we're, we're lucky enough we're blessed enough that Angel studios who is famous for The Chosen, as well as Sound of Freedom, they said, Hey, let's make a movie out of this or a series and so they're, they're literally right now filming the series, up in Bountiful at, at the homestead that's in the that's in the book, and that's happening right now. So I mean, it's, it's so cool. Um, I mean, I, you know, it's, it's just really cool. It's every, every author's dream, right?

Chris LoCurto 6:59
Yeah, no kidding. I mean, just the thought of being able to get one book written, and get that out and let it be a success. But you've got 10. And that's moving into a series. So that's pretty darn fantastic. And

Jeff Kirkham 7:11
in giving credit where credit's due like the co-author, Jason, that guy is an absolute machine. He's like, a nuclear power plant that just, he could just hammer and hammer and hammer. So I'm so lucky to have somebody like him with me who has really pushed everything across the finish line. We never intended it to be a series or any of that. And it's kind of a funny story is when we first wrote the book, it was like 800 900 pages long. And so when we went to the publisher, they're like, you're not Stephen King with a stand. Nobody's going to read a post-Apoc novel that's that long, you got to. So we chopped a bunch of characters and stuff out that later became the novellas in between the main books. And that's how we ended up with so many books. So it's

Chris LoCurto 8:00
huge your accident. That's awesome. Now tell me about ready man.

Jeff Kirkham 8:05
So ready man is our is our company, we've shifted more over to the literature. For more information for people to read, we still have some of the products that I developed but Ready Man is emergency preparedness survival stuff, we slowed down because of COVID on the training staff that was there. But I'm ready man is still alive and pushing forward. And if we could get social media to keep, from canceling our pages, they they they like to delete our pages because I guess they don't dig what are messages, you know, self-reliance and anything. It's funny, we're not even controversial, but we get literally woke up like three months ago, four months ago, and to Instagram, it deleted our page. So you know what it of course, when I got that I was like, Oh, of course, because that was like the fourth time social media deleted our page. But

Chris LoCurto 8:59
But literally, you're you've got stuff out there. Like I love the credit card size, you know, fish hooks and tools and everything. That's all in one piece. So that if you are out and about you literally can help yourself stay alive. Well, it's such a horrible thing.

Jeff Kirkham 9:16
It's such a little thing. Yeah. So and that's, you know, and so we went and that's where predominantly with books, it's like, well, books are, you know, pretty innocuous. We're not We're not burning books in the streets yet, but it's like well, maybe they'll let us get away with it with the books. And so there's a bunch of instructional books on there as well as the black autumn series and it's a growing library of self-whites but we still have our products like the wilderness survival card that you just spoke about and hostage Escape Card and whatnot.

Chris LoCurto 9:49
I love it because a we have a large farm homestead. We're moving a lot of our business too and all that kind of fun stuff But I mean, it has just made it when everything happened through COVID. If you don't look at it, even in an aspect of, you know, the world's going crazy if you just look at supply issues, yeah, and the way that you know, it was amazing how much we were able to start looking at our own land and go Well, amount, if we don't get anything if we, if we're struggling and getting things out here, then we can take care of ourself, we've got stuff here, we could do, we could set things up. But the thing I do love is you do go beyond that and say, Okay, how do you how do you in a very smart way very intelligent, white, just protect yourself, you know, from anything that could happen, you know, some of those, you know, apocalyptic, you know, creatures come out of the books, then they show up at your, your homestead. But I mean, seriously, the ability to just protect yourself. When things you know, things do go bad. So you know why that's such a bad message.

Jeff Kirkham 11:00
One of the big messages that we have that's really coming out in the movie that we're in the series that we're putting out is, you know, is growing things and raising animals, brings people together. And that solves a big problem because isolationism is horrible on human beings. And so I teach this in our in our mental health stuff, where, why it's so incredibly important for you to be surrounded by a community, a good community that uplifts you. And so if you think about like prison, right? How do we, how do we punish prisoners, we punish prisoners by putting them in isolation. And it's so incredibly effective against human beings that they now know, if we leave people in isolation too long, they will go into psychosis, it's only a matter of time. And it is so effective. It even works against the sociopaths that are out there. And so we have to have community and ready man, we were we were carrying the flag saying, hey, because prior to us, it was like, everybody was like, I'm a lone wolf. And I'm gonna go to the mountains and hunt deer and feed my family. And I was like, no, no, that that's a myth, that's not going to happen that way you were, you're gonna run into problems. And so when we wrote black autumn, we looked back through history, and we saw were the apocalypse, give or take, you know, using that as a catch all term, we saw where the apocalypse had overtaken people, and they were living in the post apocalyptic world. And that's where the number of people that we got between 150 to 200 people for settlements, that's where we derived a bunch of the information that we then put into the black autumn series that we're now putting into the movie. So that we can say, hey, this is our best guess. And our best guess of what could happen and how people would handle it, we actually looked back at history. And interestingly enough, and Afghanistan, when you got out into the middle of Easter bib, nowhere, the majority of the villages were about 150 people to 200. And as soon as they got bigger than that they would split just like the tribes did on the plains. And all the way back that eventually, when it got a little bit bigger, they became city states that then and then it would grow. And everybody knows about that. But that's, that's where a lot of that stuff came up. And so in, in the movie is really one of hope. Because with a community you get past the point of, you know, hey, what's the whole point of living if the whole world is falling apart at the hinges, and community and family is what brings that hope which which uplifts us?

Chris LoCurto 13:34
Yeah, you know, it's amazing as you talk about that, we from my wife and I, we just, we have a place we call the ridge. Again, we're are we're moving our business there as much as we possibly can, and we turned it into a big farm. And our goal was, we were just going to get five acres somewhere and put a couple of chickens on there. And my wife wanted a dairy cow. And God blessed us with a much larger place. And then he showed us some things that he wanted us to do to be able to utilize this place to help people in this process of setting up this homestead and just dramatically growing a farm to take care of people from a health conscience aspect. Everything is super healthy all we have come across so many people that we are now in a community with that we're not in our normal community. And the amazing thing about it, this is the thing that has blown me away. The folks that we come in contact with are trying to take care of their families. They're trying to take care of their small community, whatever, they're trying to live healthily. They are the salt of the earth. I mean, they are incredible people. We've not come across anybody that we're like, well, we need to stay away from them. I mean, it is all been Oh wow. We're creating another network of people in just a different area. In the Everything is as it becomes a resource. So, you know, people that are doing things that you're not doing, you know, you might be doing something farm-wise or Construction-wise or whatever. And then you know, somebody else who's doing something that that you're not doing, you can come together all that kind of fun stuff. And I just think that's super amazing that you're bringing awareness to don't be isolated. And I really, if you, go ahead,

Jeff Kirkham 15:29
I was just gonna say, it's like, you meet amazing people, and you can't do it all yourself, right? And so you need, you need somebody that knows a little bit about electronics, or mechanics, or whatever that is. And then, and then part two, like in the show is, and we bring this out in the, in the second novel, which is called White wasteland, where it's really like where God and faith start coming in. And so you get to know your communities. And it's really interesting, it's almost serendipitous is now, history is showing that it's probably a belief in a Supreme Being is what started the earliest communities and bringing people together so that they could talk about that and get together, you know, with these findings that they're in ancient Turkey and whatnot. And so that's where with us with black autumn is when we shift over in Book Two, which is white wasteland, the aspect of faith that comes in to help people get through the hard times and how utterly important that is, to human beings, at least the world according to Jeff and Jason, and I think

Chris LoCurto 16:42
all you have to do is look at at COVID. If you I think most people on the planet understand a lot of the statistics that came out of isolation and how mental health just declined and suicide rates and I'm it's just horrid. So I love that you guys are doing that. Talk about rewilding, what's going on there. I know you guys is do you have your own camp? What's going on there?

Jeff Kirkham 17:13
So we use there's a beautiful ranch that we use. It's in southern Utah, it's called the homestead Ranch, not the homestead ranch homestead with an L homestead ranch. It's beautiful. It was designed as kind of a retreat for people. So there's there's really nice cabins and stuff with people stay in there. And what we do is we've taken a very we're a little bit unusual, because in the retreat space, it's it's typically dominated by women. So and not always, but I mean, the majority is its women, the facilitators are women. And the attendees are women, because women tend to be more in touch with their emotional selves than guys are because we tend to be distracted or we blow that stuff is kind of hippie stuff and whatnot. And so, so we're a little unusual in that almost all of our facilitators are men. And the people that come to the rewilding is it is men and women, the term rewilding, you'll appreciate this. Chris comes from John the Baptist, he came in, and he was known as the is the wild man out in the because he was living in the desert and stuff. So the, the inspiration for rewilding is a company group is Mustang Medicine. And one of the main guys is by the name of Hugh Vale. And he trains and teams are gentle Wild Mustangs, which is no, no small feat. If you know anything about wild mustangs. They are big, dangerous animals. And so we use them as kind of a metaphor and part of the stuff that we practice. And so the rewilding, what we do is we share different techniques for people on the how to handle that are in and regulate their nervous system to help them get through, you know, day to day life, and we have everything from people that have had horrible trauma, all the way up to CEOs that are just like, look, I'm actually pretty stable, I just know I could be better and they and they find us through literally through word of mouth and we run them through different somatic experiences. It's a very gentle, empathetic way it's not you know, big bad Greenbrae Jeff yelling at people in the waves that they need to be stronger and stuff I that you know, maybe that has a place but not with me

Chris LoCurto 19:35
on that my studying right now.

Jeff Kirkham 19:38
The most important thing you know, I don't do that it's a very gentle, positive. You know, we do positive peer pressure but you know, we'll do cold plunges as part of the somatic experience and we explain why it's important, both physiologically as well as emotionally and why that works. But, you know, when we tell people look maybe a coal punch for us, you just get into the water up to Your knees, that's okay. You decide what you need, we can't tell you that you decide what you need. And so it's a very gentle reminder. And we do, you know, we do heat and the cold and we do breathing. And we've really, it's been so meaningful and so substantial that people have come to us afterward and said, Look, I just want you to know I was you guys were my last stop. And then I was going out in the desert, and I was, I was going to end it all. But I stopped at you guys. And you and you guys showed me that, hey, there's, there's hope there's a way that I can I can maneuver my way out of this, you know, we're not a we're not a silver bullet by any stretch of the imagination. But we tell people, here are some tools, take these tools, you know, breathing, heat, whatever, that we go through over the weekend, take these home, practice them, share them with your community, work on building your community so that you're surrounded by good uplifting people. And, then that's the title rise all ships. And so that's, it's really, it's a it's a message of hope. But it's a message of hope, with tools. And so and we refer to the ancient texts, like the Bible and whatnot, more on the psychological aspect, because the Bible, as a psychology text, is amazing. It's it's like, it's so fascinating. And so and so are many of the other ancient texts that we bring in that we talk about, as well as modern stuff as well. But that's really as I is my big, you know, that's where my heart's at right now. That's, that's our big focus that we're, we're really spending a lot of, you know, bring calories on to do so.

Chris LoCurto 21:44
I love it, there's, it is so hard because there's a good chunk of people who are listening that are like, gosh, that, that seems so extreme, that's not something I need, and you you, you may not, but what we discount and what we many times just don't understand, as somebody who deals with people who've experienced a lot of trauma, you know, we've done over 500, Next-Level Life events, and a lot of those who have had folks that have dealt with trauma, right now dealing with children that have gone through a lot of trauma. A lot of folks don't realize that there are people out there who have been through stuff that they haven't experienced. And they may look like they're living a normal life or halfway decent life. And the body, the book, The Body Remembers the score, as the body remembers of the score, Body Keeps the Score, the Body Keeps the Score such a fantastic example of what people are going through, that you may not even realize. And a lot of folks, you know, I'm one of those folks who has been through a lot of trauma. But for me, it's been a deal with it, get over it move forward. There's a thing in my life where I couldn't stay in it, I had to figure out how to overcome this and move forward to the point that I ended up discounting what I have been through that the body does remember a lot of this stuff, and the body does, you know, think of these things. And so as somebody who's able to overcome a lot of stuff, it's just out of the grace of God.

I mean, it's just the blessing of God, that God put me in a place to start learning, researching, studying how to overcome this stuff, and then help a bunch of people with it. But a lot of folks hearing this, don't realize that there's a ton of people out there that are struggling, because the body does remember the body is keeping that score, that there is trauma that they've experienced, they're never without going into the details, there was some torturous stuff that I experienced when I was a kid. And it I think it was 20-some years later. Somebody just in a funny, random way touched me not anywhere inappropriate, but touched me in a way that my immediate reaction was Don't ever do that. And I went Hold on. Wait, what just happened? I had to actually catch myself and go, what just came out of me. And it was something referring back to something I experienced 20 years ago and I there wasn't control over it. It wasn't it was the body that said, stop this right now. This is bad. So for the folks, I'm going into all of this detail, because there's a lot of folks out there that are listening to this that have experienced stuff on unfortunately, they may have discounted it as being something that's really affecting them, and something that's really impacting them, and something that's affecting decision making. So I really if you're Listening to this in any of this is landing, you got to look into this, this is something that you need to pay attention to just get the information, just take a little bit, you know, it doesn't take you're not losing anything by looking into it. But understand there are people out there, like Jeff, like us that are that recognize you have been through stuff and really want to help you try and heal again, it's not the silver bullet, there's a lot of work you got to do with it. But I just feel like there's a lot of people that need to hear that. So thank you, Jeff, for doing all of that.

Jeff Kirkham 25:33
And I like to say to as it's like, you know, the example I tell people is, look, it's like a workout, right? When you go to the gym. And I ask people is like, who has found that one workout? When you go to the gym, you could go Yeah, I'm done. I never have to come into this place ever again. That's it, I nailed the workout. And it's like, it doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. It's a continuous thing. But when you do it with purpose, and you do it with perspective, and you do it for for a rationale as to the things of why you're doing it, that helps open up that understanding of like, oh, that's why I reacted that way, or that's why I react that way when when these other things happen. Because this goes back, you know, there's nerve near term stuff that we deal with. And then there's stuff that's all the way in the past, you know, that when we were kids or whatnot, and everybody's a little bit different, but then all of a sudden, it's that understanding that we can go Oh, okay. And then that helps us get curious because the opposite of anxiety is curiosity. And if we can switch that perspective and say, Okay, why is this happening and get really curious about it, then we can start peeling the onion. And that's when we really we start elevating our consciousness and moving forward. I mean, I, I just had a, you know, couple of weeks ago, because nobody's perfect. Everybody's dealing with their own personal demons and whatnot. And so it's just like, workouts, right? So what workout works for you doesn't necessarily work for me. And that's where we give people a plethora of tools. But you know, a couple of weeks ago, like I was at an event, and there may have been somebody there that that tied into stuff in the past with a with a business dealing and whatnot. And I was kind of like, I didn't want to talk to him. And, you know, the business did business hadn't gone well. And so when I was leaving the place, we got into the car, and my kids started saving, and I ended up blowing up at him. And I'm a very mellow guy, but I ended up blowing up at him, my wife had to kind of put her hand on my on my arm and be like, Hey, what are you okay, chill out a little bit. And so when I got home, it because, you know, because I've been doing this work, I could, I could then sit there and go, Curie, you know, curiosity and go, Why did I blow up on my kids reel, with a realization of, oh, this was triggered. I mean, that's a term that's used way too much. But this had set off this, it lit the fuse that then lead to me. So I went in, and I, you know, and it's like, I understand that. It was about me in what I was making it. So I went into my kids, and I was like, hey, look, I was wrong. You know, they're young kids. And I was like, Look, I was wrong. And my, you know, my middle kid who's just got a huge heart. He's like, it's okay, Papa. And I was like, No, it's not okay, I that was not appropriate. And it and it still makes me Frosties because it's like, when you know, you're, you're being a good dad. Because he was he said, Okay, Dad, I forgive you. And I was like, I was like, man, you know, my heart just grew. And it was it was an amazing experience. But it's been it's through this so we can, we can learn to change our perspective and start peeling that onion and get curious as to why we do those things. And then these different tools that would help us manage and regulate our nervous system.

Chris LoCurto 28:54
Yeah, I've always threatened to put a big sign in our event space that just says Be curious. Because so many folks, you know, like you said, I love the way you said it the opposite of anxiety. Well, what creates anxiety, internal focus, so focus, loss of worth, loss of of, of believing other people believe in it, the whole internal, oh my gosh, what's wrong with me? Even if I mean, or something's coming, that's going to make me a bad person that's going to hurt me that's going to know all of those things. Now there is the legitimate anxiety of oh, gosh, that's a barrier that's 50 feet away from me. Great, but so much is self created. Self focus, and if you are self focused, one of the things we say is when you are self centered, you can't possibly gain quality perspective. You can't because to gain perspective, quality perspective, you have to care about something else other than you in the moment. If all your focus astonish you in that moment, you can't be curious. Because every your whole mental capacity is focused on the anxiety, the thing that's wrong with you the struggle, if you can stop and go Hold on a second, shut down the thinking, get away from the lies, stop the emotional process. Let me try and move into the the logical side of my brain if I can. What just happened? Why did that happen? Then like you said, all of a sudden, oh, my gosh, I can tie that all the way back to this thing over here. And the great thing is, it's because the struggle is when you are in that anxiety and somebody pushes on you, Hey, are you okay? Well, of course, I'm okay, I'm fine. The kids are just being you know, irrational, or this is just, all of a sudden, you go into that self protection mode, you know, you compile it, by the defensiveness, the self protection. If you're curious, it allows you to stop and go, crap, let me take responsibility. I just screwed up and you did something that I so love, that we try to help people to get to is to not allow people to rescue them, when they do take responsibility, you know, by you saying no, it's not. Okay. This is me. And so I love that we had no plan on hitting this section. This is great. This is where I've got all these leadership questions I'm gonna ask you, but I think this is just so powerful for us to get into, you know, the emotional and mental health side of things.

Jeff Kirkham 31:28
But you know, but the reality though, is, that is true leadership. I mean, you know, it's like a leadership story from Afghanistan, I, you know, we had, you know, I, it'd be me and a couple of other guys. And we would have 100, Afghan commandos that we had trained, so we'd lead train, and advise these guys, and we'd cram as much information between their ears during the day, and then it was like, Okay, get your rifle. And we'd go hit targets at night with these guys. And our my survivability and the other Americans that were there were very small groups, like three or four of us. And so our survivability was a direct result of how well we did training these guys. And so, you know, when inevitably, the Americans that screw something up, or, you know, the wrong place that get bombed or the Taliban, or al Qaeda would blame us for something that we didn't do. And it could just be outrageous stuff. And these guys would get upset. And, and on the leadership on the leadership side, you know, the Afghans, they're not Americans, you yell at them. I mean, though, though, they'll shoot you. And so you have to win these guys over, right? And, you know, build relationships of trust and that rapport and I remember distinctly, there was one time, they just had this outlandish idea that we had, we had thrown prisoners out of the back of the helicopter. And it was like, it was absolutely not true. And some of the guys had even been on the helicopter, and fallen prey to this story. And I was like, did you see anybody in there? No. And it was like, well, but at one point, I told them, I was like, Guys, we are human beings, just like you are in America. We are not perfect, we screw things up. And we will continue to screw things up. And we're doing the best we can. And I was like, and you know, that you can always get a fair shake from me. So it's, like, behalf of the United States. I was like, I'm sorry, we, you know, we screw things up. And, and for those guys, it you know, fast forward, you know, was it been 15 years later or something? I did the same thing with my son that I just told you about. But, but it was one of those moments where all of these guys that were there were, like, literally ready to mutiny, looked at me and were like, Okay, thanks. And they, you know, they went back to the barracks, and they were good to go. And so it's, I think all of this stuff ties into leadership because people will follow authenticity, they will smell a fake, just like, they will eventually smell a skunk. And people, people want to follow authentic people. I mean, in TV, you think about what, you know, reality TV was such a huge spike and everything. And it was fantastic because of the authenticity and then what's killed reality TV, they started figuring out their phone script. And it's like, that's not authentic because a lion. It's the same thing. And it's the same thing in business. It's the same thing in life. It's the same thing of being a parent. Because authenticity is synonymous with integrity, and nobody wants to follow a liar. Yeah,

Chris LoCurto 34:25
I think that's so powerful, because that was gonna be that was the first leadership question I was gonna ask you was like, What did you experience? Like? How did that skill set play in everyday missions? And just so people know, when you say go hit targets, you're not talking about target practice. You're talking about live targets as you go out at nighttime. So this is you're training people and people are putting their lives on the line every night. So how difficult was that? So obviously, you just gave us a great example of what does it looks like to lead people who probably have a level of trust for you but you It's so shocking to hear their response. If you're arguing with an American, you know, you're arguing with an American, you know, you tell these guys something and they shoot you, it's because it's, you know, you've gone somewhere deep inside of them. That is unacceptable. You've reached them. Obviously, something that we don't understand in America is the shame and honor society, you know, that shame and honor? You know, what that's like, in a Middle Eastern world is all about shame and honor. It's that back-and-forth on there. How difficult was it? Or let me ask it this way, what did you do to learn how to adjust your leadership to speak to somebody you didn't fully connect with?

Jeff Kirkham 35:46
Man? That's a great question. And you know, probably somebody once asked me, they were like, Jeff because I was in a counter-terrorist unit for 13 years. So I was back and forth, back and forth, back and forth to either Iraq or Afghanistan predominantly for 13 years doing what in the military, we would call direct action operations where I was working with these indigenous Commandos, these Afghans, predominantly, I'd specialized in Afghanistan. So I had years on the ground over there working with these guys, and somebody wants to ask me a very similar question to what you just asked, Jeff, if you could name one thing that contributed to your survivability, what was it? And I you know, and I thought for a little while, and I was like, well, it earlier in my life, I had, I had served as a missionary for my church. And I had gone to I went to Korea, and on my you know, for this as a missionary, so I had to learn the Korean language, the Korean language is very difficult for Westerners to, learn, because Korean is actually is a very, is a very complex language. And since that time, I'd studied a bunch of other languages, but Koreans are, they've got different nuances than then than we do here in the United States. And so you have to learn how to get along with people who don't see the world the same way that you do if you're going to be successful. And so I took those lessons with me to Afghanistan, and and to Iraq. And it was building those relationships of trust building rapport so that these guys knew that if I told them something, that I was being authentic, and that I had integrity.

And I'll tell you another story where we're in Afghanistan, I was in Kandahar, Afghanistan, and the guys in Kandahar were more religious than the guys up north in Kabul or the other areas there. They're very religious. And so it Americans at that point in the war, it was about 2007 or 2009. You know, it's all kind of meshed together, but it was. But Americans, we would not when we were on assaults, if we were assaulting like building multiple buildings in a village, Americans did not go into the mosques, we the Afghan commandos could go into the mosque, because we're very sensitive to the point that we did not want to desecrate what, you know, these religious institutions were very sensitive to that. And so anyways, we were having a briefing, and I'm sitting there as the advisor with my commander, who's an Afghan, and the interpreters interpreting him. And we are working with the seals that night, and the seal commander is giving the briefing and so he says a few sentences, and then the interpreter interprets. So at one point, the seal officer was up there and he was like, and there are mosques on the target, and no Americans will go into the mosque and so the interpreter interpreted that. And then the commander, whose name was Bashir started talking back and forth, back and forth, back and forth to the interpreter. And in the end, the seal commander was like, hey, is there a question and the interpreter said, he said, the commander agrees with you, except that, Mr. Jeff, he can go into the mosques, no other Americans can go into the mosque, but he can last, you know, and immediately the other seals that were on the, you know, all the heads turned to me, and they're looking at me, and I like, What makes you so special? And they grabbed me afterward and said, What's up? Why, you know, what's going on, you know, and they're like, Did you convert to Islam or something? I was, like, I was like, no, these guys know that. I respect them, and I won't do anything that is going to cause them to run into moral or ethical issues, especially in the mosques. And they're like, oh, wow, and that and that, and again, that's a tenant of that's leadership, either in business that's leadership in the military, and that's leadership really in your family to where it's like you're, you're watching out you've got you just got that integrity that people know what you say what you mean, and you mean what you say, and you'll stick to it.

Chris LoCurto 40:00
Yeah, I think that a big key is being able to, you know, anticipate a person, if I can anticipate that you have integrity if I can anticipate that you have honor, and it doesn't, you know, I mean, you're talking about seals. I mean, these aren't guys that are. These are pretty good guys, you know, they're there, their goal isn't to go in and be dishonoring and destroy stuff for no real purpose. You know, these are guys that are very intelligent, well trained. You know. And so it's interesting that the difference is not that they don't have respect for them, it's that you've proven yourself to a point that they understand you have honor, you know, they can trust your integrity, that you're not going to go and do something that goes against them. How do you see that playing out? As you come home? And you've created 47 billion businesses and your lead there they did that translate well into leadership here, as you deal with? I'm a, I don't want to make a bad assumption, but I'm assuming you're around the Gen X, age-ish. Close to how did you use those things that you learned or the things that you implemented? They're here?

Jeff Kirkham 41:25
Yeah. So am I a Gen X, or I think so. I'm almost 54. So Oh, yeah. So

Chris LoCurto 41:29
you're definitely Gen X? Yeah, yeah.

Jeff Kirkham 41:31
I guess I'm a Gen X or, or Gen Y, or I don't know, what am I 50s. You know, it's, it's like, you know, if you read the ancient texts, so we'll take the Bible, right? If you read the Old Testament, you read the New Testament, and you can say this with anything. I had this realization years ago, I was reading The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre DeMoss. And, and it was like the, you know, the book was written like 150 years ago. And I was reading I was struck, I was like, holy cow. Human beings have not changed one bit, you know, and at that age, it was like, That was a long time ago. Well, no, it's like you read the Bible, right? And you read like the Old Testament or whatnot. And not to not to go on a religious bent, but you figure the Bible's at least 1000 years old. Well, you know, depending on where you fall on the scale, I think we can all agree it's at least 1000 years old. Well, guess what, you read that thing on the psychological side, and it's like, we have not changed one bit. Human beings react and do smart things, and dumb things the same way that human beings do now 100%. And so that's where it's like, to this in the civilian life and the military life, or the law enforcement life or the family life. Human beings are human beings. And if you treat people with respect and authenticity, then they know where you stand. If you plant that flag, and you're like, This is me, I'm planting my flag. You know, in the rewilding, we call it a summit statement, you know, you can call it a mission statement or whatnot. But this is where I plant my flag. This is what's important to me, this is where everything that I do guides me towards this. And when you have that, then you have you have that authenticity, where it's just like, No, I'm not, I'm not compromising my, my personal morals and ethics. Because I know where I'm going, because I get a direction, I've got to, you know, inland navigation, I've got an Azmuth a direction of where I'm going and a destination there at the end, and it absolutely translates across all things. And I'm not gonna say could you be successful as in a business, or in the military and or Well, anywhere else by being a, you know, an amoral and nonethical person? Absolutely. We see it every single day. But I will tell you that he's striving to do that it for me in my life, makes life so much more joyful, and the people that that I attract, it's interesting, like, I work with people that are in direct competition with some of the businesses that I have direct competition. So like, so I'm the same stuff. And people ask me, they're like, what, why do you do that? And it's like because the world is so big, the ocean is so broad, and it's so deep, that if I capture just a smidgen with these people that I'm working with, we're all super happy. We're all super successful. And now I've surrounded myself with people who are thinking and love the same things that I do. And so it makes life so much more enjoyable, and like, problems that I'm trying to solve. I can now call people who are in the same industry and go, How did you solve this? And they tell me and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, you just saved me a week's worth of headaches and brain damage, letting me know that thank you so much, and it's reciprocal. It's back and forth. So it absolutely translates across, I believe, across all the different layers 100 percent.

Chris LoCurto 45:01
So something we're huge on, you know, this is what we see with every company that comes in doesn't matter who you are, where you're from what you do. Lack of high levels of quality communication is the number one issue, period. It's always the biggest issue. Because what did you learn how to communicate? Right? You learned from the last leader, you learned from parents, you learned from maybe a football coach. And if somebody has not taught you what high levels of quality communication look like, then you just don't get there. I mean, it makes it very difficult for you to choose to do it on your own, because you don't have the training on it. You've obviously learned what it was like to have communication and high levels in a war zone. What What was that like as a leader? What was the priority? How did you go about it? What was the experience?

Jeff Kirkham 45:58
You know, I think, I think good communication, high-level quality communication. I mean, you know, kind of jumping forward to jump back. But we see this and rewilding with people that have relationship issues, where it's like, where's your communication, you know, in there, in their home life is, is chaos or turmoil? And it's like, well, if have you spoken to your, your significant other about, you know, your wife or your husband about this stuff? Well, you know, I tried to, and it's like, well, that means you haven't. And so, in communication, it's interesting, because in the military, the number one thing that we figured out, the military will dump millions and millions and millions of dollars on the latest and greatest communications equipment, because we have found the number one thing, you know, beyond the raw material of the human beings that are behind the communication. But communication is probably at in level of importance, it's probably like number one or number two, because that's how you work is is cohesive units. So the United States, we are the best in the world, hands down, it kicks in other people's behinds when it comes to war. And it's not because we're the strongest, it's not because we're the fastest, it's not because we're the most accurate with rifles, or even because we have the best equipment, although we do have great equipment. It's because we work as cohesive units, we talk to each other, and we combine in a team effort so that we can accomplish the mission. And the reality is, we're very unusual in that way. And that I you know, I've traveled all over the world and worked with foreign militaries all over the world. And it's always been interesting to me that other militaries will not support it. Other parts of the military air force don't want to support the Navy, and the Navy doesn't want to support the army or whatnot, because of internal conflicts that are going on. And at its core level in the military. As soon as, as soon as things are going on. We're always there to help support, you know, nine times out of 10 We're there to help support each other. And that starts with communication. 100%.

Chris LoCurto 48:14
Dude, that is so good. That's such a great picture. As we're consistently trying to teach leaders and business owners and team members, how important communication is, it's amazing that when you look at it in a picture of war, the cohesiveness, it just screams the importance, right, if I'm telling you that you need to communicate with your team members here, you know, in in California or New Jersey, or Alabama or whatever, you're like, Yeah, I mean, we're, we're still just going to come to work and do what we do and make our widgets and move on, I'll try to communicate well, but when you paint the picture of this is war. Not being cohesive, kills you, not being cohesive causes you to lose. It changes the picture of how important it is to communicate well. So if you can plug that into your business that creates widgets in recognition, no nobody's going to die here. No, you know, people are coming to work for eight hours and going home and probably spending too much time on texting or social media. But if you understand the concept of cohesion and what productivity is, then it changes the importance of communication. If I can recognize that if I communicate well enough, my team becomes cohesive, therefore, my productivity is higher. The quality is higher. The care and concern is higher in what a fantastic benefit. What if my just-team route is higher because of the cohesion? I love it. That is that just really changes the way of looking at how important it is in your business, that there's no war going on, you're not shooting at somebody, you're you know, making a widget and selling it. What are some of the communication struggles that you experienced in war zones? And how did you overcome them?

Jeff Kirkham 50:23
You know, well, there's language, right? Because I was working with was working with foreign entities. And so you know, it'd be very ethnocentric of me to expect the Afghans to learn to speak English. And so at one time, like I spoke Pashto, well enough that I could run a target and I didn't have to have an interpreter with me. And I learned Dari and Darian Pasha, the two languages, they speak in Afghanistan or Dari and Pashto. And the two languages are very different. And so Dorries kind of like ancient Persian, or Farsi, like what they speak in Iran, but it's a little bit different than that. And then posh too is more posh as posture. But and so for me, you know, there's a language component that was there. And so I started learning the language. And even when I was in Iraq, I studied Arabic and then I got to Afghanistan I started you know, I started out in Kabul was the first place that I went and they predominantly speak dari, there. So I started learning Dori. And then I ended up down south, like, the story I told you about, and I started learning Pashto. Well, that's why I'm learning the language of the area. But along with language, I was learning the culture because the two are almost synonymous. Right? And so the more I learned about the language, now I'm winning over, I'm winning over the people that are there because it was very unusual for an American to start to learn the language of those guys. And I would ask them, I'd be like, you know when inevitably I would screw up the language when I was talking and they're like, you're saying that wrong or you're now interjecting the dari into the posh to which you know, it happened all the time. And now we're creating a relationship because now I'm not some unobtainable. the person that's living in an ivory tower that never makes mistakes, I'm just another human being, that they see that I'm trying to be good too and right down to wear, like, my guys all carried ak 40 sevens, which is the rifle that they chose, instead of the M 16. I carried I could have carried anything I wanted. Because of the unit I was in, I carried an AK 47. And I learned to be very efficient, and very proficient with that rifle. So the guys knew they were like Jeff's not asking us to do anything he's not willing to do himself. And so that that comes down to that, that communication level, I was learning their language I was learning, I would go and meet with the moolah that was there, the Mulas kind of like the, the preacher for the area. And I'd go and sit down with a moment I'd be like, don't tell me to teach me about Islam. And he would, you know, and they're like, more than happy to, you know, and I never, I was never gonna convert. I mean, I'm a Christian, but that's never going to convert, but, but I wanted to learn more about where these, these guys and to some extent, gals were coming from, in about their culture and about them and take a serious interest in them as human beings. And that really is what helped me, you know, be as successful as I was, and that unit.

Chris LoCurto 53:33
That's so good. Now, kind of transitioning this back to home, you recently put yourself through nursing school, what was the driver for that? What was Why did you go and do that? I think that's a big tackle at 54.

Jeff Kirkham 53:52
I think that was my wife kicking me out of the house, you know. So I had, you know, so I was one of the original guys that started black rifle. And then I exited the company and sold everything back. And I had a tourniquet company at the same time, which was rats that you mentioned before Rapid Application tourniquet system, it was one of my patents that I had invented that product and we're selling all over the world. And I sold that company off because I'm a I'm a small business kind of startup person. I really liked developing products and stuff. But once a business becomes like a full-fledged business that it's, you know, where you start getting a lot of people you start losing some of the intimacy with folks and I was kind of like, Man, I like doing more of the product stuff. So I saw I sold that, you know, sold that business off. And I was like, Well, what am I going to do now and you know, and I've done a ton of medical stuff when I was in the military. I've retired from the military at this point. I'd done a bunch of military's done a bunch of health care stuff, trauma, trauma stuff in the in the military and Um, I was like, and I had an interest in healthcare already. And so it was like, You know what I can be. And because I'm into emergency preparedness, I was like, I'm interested in health care. And like, I can be 90 and work as a nurse. And so because nursing is nursing is unbelievably broad. Like, even, like, when I started, I didn't realize how broad nursing is. And so I was like, you know, and I'm blessed, right? Because there's a nursing college, like, literally seven minutes from my house. So I was like, you know, I told my wife, I was like, Yeah, I'm thinking about going to nursing school. And she was like, good because you need to get a house. And I was like, well, and you know, and I came back, and I was like, wow, you know, it's gonna take a lot of time. And she's like, You work like, 15 hours a day anyways, next excuse. And I was like, Well, it's, you know, I'm gonna have to drive there from the house. And she's like, it's seven minutes away next. And I was like, Well, you know, it's gonna cost some money. And she's like, the VA is going to pay for all of it. Next excuse. And I was like, Well, alright, I guess I'll go to nursing school I'm out of excuse it, but it was, it was phenomenal. Going back to learning for the sake of learning, especially in healthcare, it was tremendously cathartic. It really activated parts of my brain that hadn't been in a while. It was I needed a break from being an entrepreneur as much as I could get that. Because, you know, somebody's just handing me a syllabus and saying, learn these things. It was like, this is easy. You know, but nursing school was, was really challenging, and, you know, you know, mentally, and, and then really, I wanted to move more into the aspect of like giving back.

So and that ultimately, is what led to rewilding because, you know, nursing school, if there's any nurses that are listening to this, there's kind of a joke inside the world of nursing that the exams are trick questions, followed by tricky answers. And it's so it's pretty, it's pretty squirrely, the exams aren't easy. And so I had just finished what had just graduated when my buddy Hugh, who we run the rewilding with Mustang Medicine. We run that together. And he he was like, Hey, I'm thinking about starting up a retreat, do you want to help? Well, then what that allowed me to do is because I realized that I had mashed, the ways that I used to, like mentally get ready for assault. I started fun, you know, because you fall back to your level of training, right? You don't rise to the occasion, you fall back to how much work you've done. Well, I had fallen back. So the same little ritual that I'd done before I went on assault, I had started doing prior to the squirrely nursing exams. And so he was like, you know, I want you to teach about, you know, X, Y, and Z, you know, and so I was like, Yeah, because I had wanted to go back and self-audit, why I was able to last as long as I did in the, in the CT unit, because it was a very stressful, very, very stressful, and, and so that allowed me to go back, you know, and I was like, Oh, I will, I'm doing the same thing that I used to do before assaults. And then because I was fresh from nursing school, I understood the physiology and the psychology that was behind it. So I started peeling the onion and dissecting that and going, Oh, here's what I did. And that actually is one of the tools that we teach at the rewilding. And so, but nursing was just for me, it was like one, you know, as emergency preparedness, I can be old and still work. But two, I wanted to, it was interesting to me. And then And then three, it was a way that, you know, I could give back to the, you know, give back to the community. And so yeah, and it's, it's, I'm working on my advanced degree right now. So that I'll continue to push that forward and integrate that more with you know, with the stuff we're doing with rewilding, it's been it's been a super cool journey so far.

Chris LoCurto 59:05
Yeah. Gosh, I love it. No. So you brought up something I do have to ask you, because you've gotten from something that very few people on the planet can even understand, you know, being in the Special Forces and doing what you do. It is incredible pressure. It's incredible. Stress. It's it's, it's very demanding. But you've also got into entrepreneurship, which I love. Zig said, back in the day, entrepreneurs are the only people who can understand what it's like to go from sheer exhilaration to sheer terror and back in the same 24 hours, right. It is a very high pressure stress demanding job and it's something that you know, some people are made for it. You know, I've I've run businesses for many, many years. Have multiple businesses now. But it's stress. I mean, it's it's you know, It's not special forces. But man, you know, do this for 30 plus years, there's days I like to not be as stressed out, you know, I, there's days I look forward to just a slow day. How did you manage all of the things that you experienced? You just wanted that you kind of peel back that onion? And the special forces? How did you manage the demand and the stress? And how does that apply to what you do now?

Jeff Kirkham 1:00:27
So first and foremost, is blessed with a wonderful wife. So my family my support network, is is is fantastic. My, you know, my wife is a rock, of of support, you know, she is, I mean, come hell or high water. She's there as a support. And I'm lucky enough, I married a gal that, you know, in love with, but she's also she's, she's my smarter half by far, but she's also appear. And so like, I can go to her and say, What do you think about this? And, you know, and she'll give me honest feedback, where she's like, I think you're nuts. I wouldn't do that. Or, you know, or I think that's a good idea. You know, maybe you should think that out, or she'll be the first one, I'll read some headlines. And I'll say, did you know what happened? And she'll go, send me that article. And I'll send it to her and she'll go, you didn't read the whole article? Because down at the bottom, it this is what it's saying? Or what you're interpreting is not what the you know, and I'm like, dang it, she got me again, you know, so I'm incredibly blessed. Because

Chris LoCurto 1:01:36
the best kind of spouse you could possibly have right there, the one who covers your weaknesses,

Jeff Kirkham 1:01:41
covers my Absolutely. So, you know, first and foremost, it's that and then second, I've always been interested in the psychology of, of, you know, humans in stress, and what that and what that means, because, you know, taking the military slant, if you understand what your body does under stress, then you can incorporate that so that you become a better soldier shooter, whatever that is. And so the technique of shooting that I teach, I teach, because that's what your body does, under stress, versus somebody I don't, I don't teach the most accurate way to shoot like an Olympic shooter or something like that, I teach the most sustainable way to shoot under stress. And so you know, and it's combat versus the competition, and all that ongoing argument, but I do it because I, I've, for decades now dug into what the human brain is doing under stress, so that you can incorporate that in your, you know, in your tactics and techniques. But the interesting thing is once you understand that, then all of a sudden, it's calming, because it's like, okay, I understand what my body's doing. And so it's that, it's that whole anxiety because stress is kind of anxiety, right? It's that whole reversal of like, now I can get curious as to why my body's doing that versus being stressed out because my body's doing something that it doesn't do.

So the example I like to tell people is like when you know how many people have driven on ice? Well, when you drive on ice and you and you finally get off the way on pavement, and you're and you one you go, you start breathing again and then you kind of peel your fingers off the steering wheel and I asked people I'm like, Does holding your breath to help you be a better driver? No, just putting a death grip on the steering will make you a better driver. No, but these these are things that we can then realize and go oh, I am doing things because some aspect of my brain you know without getting deep into the physiology is causing this stress response where my body's trying to equalize itself out. And so that that really for me is is is understanding that and learning that I don't profess to say that I fully understand because nobody does this is like really knew and updating all the time and then it's like okay, how do I then take these things and turn them into lessons and then bring in tools that helped me bring the stress level down? So when I'm when I'm when I'm in those instances, and then what are some and then taking that a step further. Just like how you warm up before you go to the gym and exercise so you don't pull a hammy while you're you know, doing wind sprints I should have warmed up. We should be warm. I'm a big believer and you warm up your brain you warm up your nervous system before you get into something that may be a stressful event. So just like you know, we're creatures of habit before I came on the show. It's like okay, I need to make sure that both hemispheres are balanced out or are firing Hang on all cylinders. And I go through the quick little ritual that I do and I'm like, Okay, I should be good to go. I think I'm balanced out. And I'm ready to jump in and kind of impromptu answer a bunch of questions, because it keeps that stress level and the butterflies at bay. Yeah,

Chris LoCurto 1:05:17
Josh, that's so good. That is so good. It's so funny. Have You Ever Have you ever been looking for a street that you're supposed to turn on and you turned on the radio because you can't find the street? What the world has turned How does turning down the street affect my my vision? It's It's hilarious are turning on the radio reflect my vision? Do there's so much we could talk about, you're going to be at the Next-Level Leadership Live Events. Maybe we can even dive into the stress piece more. Because I love I would love to dig into how you prepare yourself. And the things. You know, there. I think we all have a tiny thing of like, oh, well, here, this is what's coming. But I sure would love to know from the aspect of somebody who did what you've done. How did you learn? How did you discover the way that your body responds and acts on that? So maybe we can get more into that kind of stuff? When do we get into the event? One last question for you. If you could go back in time to a young Jeff, what is the one thing you would want to tell him?

Jeff Kirkham 1:06:28
Man, that's why you just gave me goosebumps. You know, you know what I you know what I would tell a young Jeff would be Don't wait. Don't wait. You know, I'm a big believer. I'm a voracious reader now. You know, I've got I've got young kids. So I'm a big believer in setting an example. And I think one of the big things you can do for your kids is let them see you reading to influence them to read. And that goes, there's a whole psychology behind reading and activating serotonin, because your eye movements, stuff like that. It's fascinating, but, I but also continuing to learn. You know, I would say don't wait, figure out, figure out where you want to go. And then ask yourself, What am I doing today? That's going to help me get there. If I want to get together and that will that'll probably change a little bit over life, Jeff had 50 is different than Jeff was at 30. You know, because I'm married now. And I've you know, and I've got kids and life changes with kids and stuff. And that's okay, it actually, it helps sharpen that focus. But if you ask yourself, What am I doing today, that's going to help me get to where I'm going either in business or your personal life? I'm talking specifically about your heart, right? What's, what's important to your heart? And what are you doing today to help you get closer to where your heart wants to be in your life? That's what I tell young Jeff is, is don't wait, figure out, figure out ask yourself, what is deeply important to you? I think that one of the questions you guys ask is, what is deeply important to you? And then the follow-up to that is what are you doing to get you closer to what is really meaningful to you? And, and, and it's amazing, because that younger Jeff, I'd be like, dude, if you do that life will be so much easier, and so much more joyful than the twists and turns and disappointments. I mean, I'll be the first to admit, I have not had a term life. I've been kicked in the guts. So many times that, you know, I can't I mean, there's been times I was literally standing on the side of a mountain shaking my fist at heaven saying, Why did you do this to me, because of disappointments that have that have come up. But it's but now looking back, it's just like Jiminy Christmas. God had a plan. And you know, if I'm where I am now because of the disappointments that I had, it would have been really nice. If I'd have been a lot clearer and avoided as many of those disappointments as I had. You know, that's, that's what I tell the young Jeff.

Chris LoCurto 1:09:12
And the great thing is, is that you are utilizing all of those disappointments, to be a better version of yourself a better husband, a better father, and obviously a better leader as well. So do thank you so much for coming on the show. It was good having you on much. We could I could have gone for hours. There are so many things. I feel like we barely scratched the surface. And at the same time, I feel like this was such good information. So, so good to have you on and I look forward to having you here in a few months. Awesome. I'm really looking forward to it. Yeah, same here. Well, folks, if you want to hear if you want to learn more from Jeff he is speaking at our upcoming Next-Level Leadership Live Event that is April 17. Through the 19th. We're going to be going deeper into leadership stress management resiliency is a high achieving leader. Currently, right now tickets are $500 off right now, but that's for a limited time. And I imagine you may have a few other exciting war stories that you're going to tell and share while we're there. I'm sure we're gonna get some good stuff out of you. If you do not want to miss this, go to Chris LoCurto.com/events and get your tickets today. That's Chris LoCurto.com/events. Well, folks, that's all the time that we have for today. I really hope this information was helpful to you. I hope this means we've reached an area that you would either love to gain more information on or are getting more help, whatever it is, as Jeff said, Don't wait. Don't wait. It doesn't matter if you're 23 or 40 or 53. Don't wait. If there's something you need to do right now. Get more information, and do something about it. Just be curious and learn about it. Don't wait. Well, we would also love to hear from you. We would love to hear your stories, your insights, whatever it is your comments. So feel free to share those with us at podcast and as always take this information, change your leadership, change your business, change your life, and join us on the next